About the woman not being able to provide proof of her virginity: Correct if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that some virgins lose their hymen without having sexual intercourse? How would such a women provide evidence of her virginity? How many such innocent hymenless virgins were wronglfuly stoned to death in ancient Israel?
Island Man
JoinedPosts by Island Man
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28
Deuteronomy 22:28,29. Thank Jebus nobody pays attention to this f*cked up part of "God's inspired word" any more.
by DuvanMuvan in28 if a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered,+29 the man who lay down with her must give the girls father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife.+ because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.
" -nwt 2013 revised edition.
was just on the thread about lot and his messed up family life and was reminded of another part of the bible that made me feel physically sick the first time i read it.
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A silly thought on freewill...
by new hope and happiness inthis was mythought on " freewill" and made me think...i need " air" to breath..so how was i born with freewill?.
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Island Man
I think the concept of freewill is somewhat of a misnomer - at least in the way it is used. Let me explain what I mean.
JWs would sometimes tell people that Jehovah dignified us all with freewill so we're free to choose whether or not we want to serve him. Used in this context, the JWs are trying to convey the impression that Jehovah is a reasonable God who does not force us to do what we don't want to do.
But contrary to this intended impression, according to their teaching, Jehovah threatens to destroy everyone who refuses to worship him. So how is the freewill that Jehovah affords us any different to the freewill that an armed robbers affords his victim whom he asks to hand over all his money while a gun is pointed at his head?
How exactly does a person's freewill dignify him if he is belittled, insulted and destroyed by Jehovah for making a choice that Jehovah does not like? A person's will cannot be free if they're being coerced by the threat of destruction, to make a particular choice.
And then there's the problem of sin. The bible says that humans can't help but do what is bad even though they want to do what is good. See Romans 7:21-25. So because of the concept of inherited sin and imperfection, every human is to some extent a puppet of sin, forced by his sinful flesh to sin in one form or another every day of his life!
And then there's the whole concept of the human mind - the seat of our will and desires - being a product of our physical brains which function according to fixed and unchanging laws of physics and wiring of which are determined by our environment. From the moment of birth and without our having any say in it, our brains and hence our minds, personalities and desires started being shaped by our environment. Freewill is just an illusion. Every choice that we make is determined by our environment. There is no ethereal self that is wholely divorced from, and that can make choiced independent of, the physical world. The conscious mind gives us the illusion of free choice. We are unaware of the plethora of physical forces that lead us to make particular "choices".
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"Holy cult hypocrisy, Batman!": Wow! I just have to share TheUnwitness' call to WT HQ!
by Island Man inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iykyoyygu4s.
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Island Man
Welcome, the unwitness!
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IS THIS A STUPID QUESTION?
by Terry inthe divine plan of the ages and the sacred secret of christ depends on the shedding of jesus' blood for mankind.. here is a question of logic which baffles me.. what if everybody who heard jesus preach thought it was nice?
what if they hadn't been threatened and merely shrugged and walked away or joined his merry band of disciples?.
he'd not have made religious enemies with the jews.
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Island Man
A very inconvenient truth which the bible teaches and which JWs try to hide from is that God does foreordain people to do evil deeds!
Note what the bible really teaches:
(Acts 4:27, 28) . . .Even so, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with [men of] nations and with peoples of Israel were in actuality gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 in order to do what things your hand and counsel had foreordained to occur.
(Acts 2:23) . . .this [man], as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, YOU fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with.
JWs are in denial of the true harsh character of the God of the bible. They even deny that he is vengeful despite the existence of texts like these:
(Psalm 18:47) . . .The [true] God is the Giver of acts of vengeance to me; And he subdues the peoples under me. . .
(Psalm 58:10) . . .The righteous one will rejoice because he has beheld the vengeance. His steps he will bathe in the blood of the wicked one.
(Psalm 94:1, 2) . . .O God of acts of vengeance, Jehovah, O God of acts of vengeance, beam forth! 2 Raise yourself up, O Judge of the earth. Bring back a retribution upon the haughty ones.
(Isaiah 47:3) . . .You ought to uncover your nakedness. Also, your reproach ought to be seen. Vengeance is what I shall take, and I shall not meet any man [kindly].
(Zephaniah 1:17) . . .And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung.
(Revelation 18:6) . . .Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her.
Now compare the above texts and Psalm 109:6-19 with this standard definition of the word vengeful:
venge·ful
[ venj -f uh
l ]
Show IPA adjective1. desiring or seeking vengeance ; vindictive: a vengeful attitude.
2. characterized by or showing a vindictive spirit: vengeful intentions.
3. serving to inflict vengeance : a vengeful killing.So Jehovah is not a vengeful God, huh JWs?
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Want to know why people accept evolution ?
by snare&racket indo you have questions about or want to understand evolution?
it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.
we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .
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Island Man
Facts of Evolution - Cassiopeia project:
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"This Generation" at the meeting today
by Batman89 init was really quite amusing 2day at the meeting when we got to the "this generation will not pass away" subheading in the wt.
the conductor spent very little time on the section and the comments that were given didnt at all make sense really.
you can tell its not understood by the majority of the friendsand will go over there heads, i was trying not to laugh lol.
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Island Man
To find out the furthest limit of their "this generation" confuse-a-ma-jig, you have to first find out the lastest death of an anointed one anointed in or before 1914. Then you take the projected life expectancy of the youngest anointed one anointed at the latest point in the lifetime of the latest dying 1914 anointed one to roughly determine a maximum possible end date. Was Fred Franz the latest survivor of the 1914 group? I doubt it. If my estimates are correct, their current 'this generation" confuse-a-ma-jig would expire sometime aroud the 2050s or 2060s.
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I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!
by Faithful Witness ini'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.
my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.
i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.
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Island Man
Quarterback: Jesus also said that the generation before the flood, took no note. No note of what? Did Noah keep it a secret?
Actually, that is a NWT mistranslation of Matthew 24:39. Jesus did not say "took no note". If you look at the greek it actually says the people "did not know". Jesus was actually comparing the people of Noah's day not knowing the timing of the flood with the fact that people would not know the timing of his future presence. That was the whole point of his comparison with the days of Noah. The context makes it clear when you read it carefully from Matthew 24:36. See my question here for more details
But Watchtower uses the unconventional rendering "took no note" to imply that the people did not take note of Noah's preaching and/or the sign of the times.
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I dropped TTATT to some door knockers today
by TheStumbler intwo jws came to my door today and i dropped a few truths bombs on them.
i thought i'd share my account of how the conversation went.. .
i was in the yard doing some weeding when two gentlemen walked through the gate.
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Island Man
Excellent!
You know something, your post just gave me an idea. The JWs post the latest copies of the magazines on their website in advance of placing the hardcopies in the field. Wouldn't it be great if there was a site where the articles in these magazines are logically debunked/critiqued/picked apart before they're ever placed in the field? It would serve as a means to forearm ex-JWs and the public so that they'd be ready to wake sleeping JWs up when they come to the door. RayPublisher, JWfacts, Simon? What do you think?
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I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!
by Faithful Witness ini'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.
my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.
i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.
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Island Man
Regarding the bit about Noah being a preacher of righteousness: You are right that the bible makes no mention of him warning the people about a flood and God did direct him to take only his family and the animals into the ark. God had already judged the world by the time he instructed Noah to build the ark. So it's possible that Noah took the initiative to preach righteousness to the people before God commissioned him to build the ark. Perhaps the violence that he saw moved him to preach to the people to change their ways and turn to righteousness, just as his forefather Enoch had done.
There is absolutely no mention anywhere in the bible of Noah preaching to the people about a coming flood at the time he was building the ark. It would be very odd for the bible to mention details of God telling him to build the ark and yet not once mention that God also told him to preach to the people about it. The whole claim about Noah preaching to the people about the flood is nothing but an unsubstantiated tradition and one which has actually injected bias in the way Matthew 24:39 is translated in the NWT. The NWT says they "took no note" but the greek simply says "they did not know" (which harmonizes with the point Jesus was making in Matthew 24:36).
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Order in the universe
by Rattigan350 inthis topic was covered in book study last night.
some commented that the universe is ordered and the stars don't collide.. that has nothing to do with order.
it is more to do with that there is more space between the stars and planets and things go between them if they were in the same area.. and do they not consider that the many things that colliided with the moon to make those crators?.
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Island Man
As you mention this I also wondered about the claim that if a pin-head sized portion of the center of the sun was placed on earth no human would be able to survive within 90 miles of it. I find that claim very hard to believe. What's the hottest temperature ever achieved on Earth by artificial means and was it impossible for humans to survive within miles of that temperature achievement?
But going back to the point about order in the universe. I think that the Watchtower has taken scientists statements about order completely out of context. The limitations of language means that scientists sometimes have to use everyday words but without intending that they be accepted with the everyday meanings. The word 'theory' is an example of this. A scientific theory is not a mere hypothesis. Also, when speaking about evolution, scientists at times use language that, to the uninformed layman, may sound as if the scientists are attributing purposeful intent to natural selection.
My guess is that the order that scientists speak of in relation to the interstellar bodies relates only to the fact that they individually have predictable orbits due to the laws of physics. But if one were to look at the universe in totallity at the most macroscopic scale and with countless billions of years compressed into seconds of time, one would likely see what appears to be a massive cloud smoke or dust randomly spreading out.
